"Yeah, I'm having an abortion right now. It's not that bad. It's not that scary. It's basically like a miscarriage. I'm live-Tweeting my abortion on Twitter "

Uhh, no it doesn't.

Health care may be able to prolong life, and health insurance may make health care more affordable, but we haven't yet reached the point of health insurance being 'protection money'. Although it could ...

In other words, at present, if you don't pay your premiums people with middle name like 'da squirrel" or "da fish" do not stop by and break your legs, or kill you if you drop coverage. Blue Cross/Blue Shield isn't doing drive-bys.

Lack of health coverage does not cause death.

However, under a mandatory government health care program funded by taxes then if a person wanted out of the program, and stopped paying taxes the government could come after them for tax evasion. Depending how strongly the person refused to pay the government, or more specifically an agent of the government, could end up shooting them.

Now wouldn't that be funny, a government health care program that very literally could be protection money.

how about a "where are they now" study designed to get a response from all the women who have had an abortion and the impact it has had on their life.

i have never seen an instance where such a study was presented in order to dissect the effect having an abortion had on the womans life in the ensuing years.

i'm pretty sure if such a study was done that there would not be very many women claiming that it was a moment that brought emotional healthiness or psychological improvement.most women have the destructive reality of guilt and shame which is a serious side affect that oftentimes takes years to fully manifest.

unless there is counseling to accompany what these women are exposed to the damage can be catastrophic for the one who travels that road.

maddog, there are sites where women have posted about their abortions...and the impact it has had on their lives:

I'm not sorry

45million voices

are two that come to mind, if you can't find the url's I'll link them later.

This may be what you are looking for.

i'm pretty sure if such a study was done that there would not be very many women claiming that it was a moment that brought emotional healthiness or psychological improvement.most women have the destructive reality of guilt and shame which is a serious side affect that oftentimes takes years to fully manifest.

unless there is counseling to accompany what these women are exposed to the damage can be catastrophic for the one who travels that road.

That's not even close to being realistic. I don't know a single woman who regrets her decision or has gone through the guilt and shame the anti-choicers are trying to foist on them. Most say that it was a relief. In fact, ALL that I know. And life goes on.

lovemyplanet,

maddog doesn't know what he or she is talking about.

http://www.webmd.com/news/20000822/study-says-most-women-dont-regret-abortion

From the article;

"The study's authors say the results agree with previous studies -- including one by former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, MD -- showing that severe mental distress following an abortion is rare.

"Most women were satisfied with their decision, believed they had benefited more than had been harmed by their abortion, and would have the abortion again," writes study author Brenda Major, PhD. "These findings refute claims that women typically regret an abortion." Major is a professor of psychology at the University of California in Santa Barbara."

Lola,

It's so obvious! Women have been aborting pregnancy since before recorded history. The knowledge of what herbs to use were passed from mother to daughter. Then came patriarchy...I'm sure you knew that. I've been enjoying your comments on this thread, you know that the issue is not the so-called life of a fetus but ownership of your body. (Isn't life really ascertained by consciousness?) While it's good that WE know, I wish ALL women did!

Thanks for that link. :)

maddog-756501, if you want to hear from real women who are not sorry, not emotionally devistated by making an intelligent and informed decision, click on my name and check the first article on my page.

That's funny the women I've met in real life who have had abortion did deal with those feelings. There was one on the vine who told her story. Yes she would make the same decision again but no it wasn't easy for her and yes she did have some difficult feelings to cope with afterward.

It wouldn't surprise me though if more women are getting through it without any major fallout. With the handy dehumanizing terms available and people touting it as nothing more than a clump of cells (no different than a wart really!), and heck even making an international circus out of abortion I can imagine there are plenty of women who succeed in lying to themselves.

And there are others who were fooled by it and found out the hard way it is indeed more than just a wart to be removed.

The articles and "expert" opinions don't hold a heckuva a lot of water with me. You can find lots of info supporting something if it happens to be the current popular trend. Five years down the road, when the trend changes, so will the information from the "experts" and the results from the pedigreed studies. Funny how people don't notice this?

That's why I hate polls. You rarely know the question that was asked, in what context it was presented and who the target audience was. Those quoted as saying they would "do it again" are often misinterpreted as they would have another abortion. What is left off is "under the same circumstances" which shows that she is comfortable with the decision she made.

There are people who suffer and regret the choice they made. This happens in many decisions in our life. I learned long ago that whatever i did, whatever was done to me, no matter how horrible or hurtful or the relationship, that it all made me who I am. I love who I am. I am strong, compassionate, independent, and not afraid to die. I will give you my last bit of food or sip of water. It hurts me that others can not see the lessons and gifts they were given in each trial of their life.

Amen!

Personally I think I messed up my karma. I should have risen to the challenge, and followed my destiny. Thats just me. I don't presume to think I know whats best for everybody. But, you can't say it isn't true that people do have regrets.

(See my post above # 1-101.)

SWMM, You couldn't have stated it any better. :) People also assume that the "negative feelings" talked about re after an abortion = regret which isn't exactly accurate. Some do end up with regret and some, as you stated, would do the same thing again under the same circumstances. That's not to say that they didn't feel any sadness or pain or sense of loss even if they knew/know they made the right choice.

People get so defensive and assume that we are saying women should feel shame for what they did and that's simply not true (maybe for some) every time those "consequences" are brought up in conversation.

Just remember, sunnyb, you did what you thought was right at the time. What you thought was right for you at the time. What you regret now is how you think things would have been different. You will never know what might have been, good or bad. There is nothing you can do to change what has been done. Think about how the experinece has changed your life. Try to find the positives in the way you treat others. Even if you feel it was a mistake remember, we learn from our mistakes. Your karma is not messed up. You've just missed seeing the good you've done for others.

justme, sadness, loss, absolutely. Writing my story was very difficult on so many levels. All the conditions, situations, afflictions and choices that brought me to that point...No regrets but as I write this even, the loss is still there. and I weep...take a deep breath...and it's OK.

how about a "where are they now" study designed to get a response from all the women who have had an abortion and the impact it has had on their life.

Here's another site with documented "where are they now" stories: RealChoice

SWMM, I really admire your strength and honesty. If my daughter were going to read about abortion online, I would hope she would read your story or at least someone similar in honesty, thoughtfulness, and strength.

Also great point you made to Sunny... it is one of the things that made you who you are today and hopefully you can embrace the person you are :) Perhaps at some point, someone who is facing her own decision will hear your story and realize it is more serious than maybe people have led her to believe. You just never know whose life you will touch because of what you have been through.

I know SWMM. Like my husband says - you can't go back and do it different, so worrying about it won't do any good. It's not like I'm going around crying all the time or have some deep depression or something, but I think it led to (perceptible but unspoken) hostility between some of our family members and that led to more different problems. If I had it to do over again, I would have a 10 yr old now, and I think my life would be richer in many ways.

I actually find it disgusting that people, the woman in particular, would belittle the ending of a life by showboating it on Twitter, You Tube, or any public media.

What's more disturbing is that she'll probably be doing the news circuit next...you know, Today Show, Oprah, etc. telling her tale, racking in millions and possibly some book deal.

It's today's new model for financial success - do something completely outlandish and socially disturbing, blurt it all over public forum, and then wait for the calls and paychecks.

Is it any wonder that other countries look at us with a "WTF" mindset...

By posting the story here you continue to sensationalize it. If you're so opposed to the woman broadcasting her experiences why did you provide her with another forum?

As you should John. You have the right to your feelings and NO ONE should take that away from you. I am merely saying no one should take that away from her either. I don't like a lot of what I hear and see. If I had it my way, we would send each other positive notes every morning, share whatever we can to make life better for us all and eat cookies and ice cream without ever gaining weight! Ah, the dream of chocolate chocolate chip. I know where I live, and I know what I see. Our world, in particular, our country, is becoming more combative. I think it is because we want everyone to be just like us because by golly we are perfect and know always what's right/best. For that to be true, would it not be seen by a single mind of every person on an issue in question?

I felt something change in me physically as I listened yesterday, but I realize that that was my feeling and my view and as much as I wanted others to feel what I did at that moment, that is not how life works. It is not how people work and if we don't figure out how to come to terms with that, we will continue to divide instead of unite ourselves.

but I actually find it disgusting that people, the woman in particular, would belittle the ending of a life by showboating it on Twitter, You Tube, or any public media.

If I could I'd vote that one up a million times! It is disgusting. And I'm sure she's going to end up making a lot of money for making a public circus out of the ending of the life of her baby. I'm pro-choice but this is revolting. And scarey that anyone would applaud her for it.

I'm pro-choice but appalled by the trend of people trying to make abortion look like it's no big deal....just another convenient BC option. And yes...no matter how you dress it up, that is what this woman is doing. And don't tell me it's about empowering women...if we were so worried about that we'd be pushing BC like mad, trying to give every woman control over her reproduction. An abortion means a woman failed to maintain control (for various reasons of course) and now has the consequence to deal with.

I felt something change in me physically as I listened yesterday, but I realize that that was my feeling and my view and as much as I wanted others to feel what I did at that moment, that is not how life works. It is not how people work and if we don't figure out how to come to terms with that, we will continue to divide instead of unite ourselves.

I understand where you're coming from completely policyorpolitics, and I guess my core problem with this is not what she did or didn't do (as that's her personal issue), as much as the signal it (and the follow-ups) will show the youth.

We have a generation of children that don't know some of the great success stories in life but are able to point to "OctoMom" on the cover of a magazine from 20 yards away. They don't know what it means to be noble and forthright, but because of the glorification, they're familiar with "Girls Gone Wild" and the antics of idiot celebrities as they're splattered everywhere.

We used to glamorize the accomplishments of those that rose above adversity, conquered in spite of overwhelming odds, and that showed the children (and helped the parents demonstrate) that you ARE able to overcome, even in the hardest times.

Now we seem to ignore those stories and instead focus on the politicians that cheat, the accountants that steal, the athletes that do drugs, and the skanks that use their bodies as "get rich" schemes.

In our quest for individual greed and immediate glorification, we seem to have lost our trip's compass and then sit and question why girls as young as 12 are getting pregnant, that children as young as 8 are dieting, and that boys feel they have no hope at such a young age. We as parents have a responsibility to do all we can for our children, but I would also contend that society has a responsibility as well, and it's failing us...and our children.

Shawn-

Hello my friend. I found nothing I could disagree with you on this issue. I hope I do not sound like I liked what she did or that I am being hypocritical. I'm just trying to express that life is complicated and we are complicated. We can have disdain for the act, but should support her right to talk about it. Meanwhile I absolutely agree with you. We have allowed the envelope to be pushed and pushed and pushed. I hat turning on my television and not being able to watch a movie without questioning will I like the language. As easily as I can agree that the message it sends can be detrimental to our youth, we must accept responsibility for making sensationalism the must for media news. I guarantee you CNN, Fox, MSNBC all have higher ratings than say CSPAN. We want the car crash and then say how dare we hold up traffic to view it!

The CEO of Fox was on Meet the Press about a month ago and was asked about their reporting. His response was honest and one we should really pay attention. He said, and I am paraphrasing, that he was not concern with facts/truth but ratings. So if that is his and other major media mindset, we need to accept they are no longer serving the need of good journalistic reporting, but what will drive the ratings. We will read this story, write our opinions and some will even check to learn how many hits it got. What if we turned to CSPAN and PBS for our news, could we change the flow? We could test it out, but somehow, I doubt we will despite our complaints presently.

Pure Horse@!$%#! People want free speech but don't want to hear other people's opinions if they clash with their own. They want television but only want aired what suits their world view. They want a world where nothing insults anyone or runs counter to a narrowly interpreted set of moral values but want to be able to bend the rules themselves. They want God not Allah. They want Allah not God. They long for the good ole days when life was simpler but don't ask them to give up their PC, their cell phone or their 2 cars with dvd players for the kids. They expect the envelope not to be pushed in any direction but the one they choose. They want drugs they don't use banned, and discuss the matter over a few beers. Life is change people, roll with it or get run over.

“The only thing constant in life is change”. François de la Rochefoucauld

actually find it disgusting that people, the woman in particular, would belittle the ending of a life by showboating it on Twitter, You Tube, or any public media.

Like video-recorded beating of a high school girl, the webcasted suicide of a teenager last year, or the stomping to death of a kitten, it has its devotees, but it's nothing to brag about.

Arguably the perpetrators were merely "exercising choice", but the victims weren't given any.

Pure Horses___! People want free speech but don't want to hear other people's opinions if they clash with their own

Hey I fully agree she had the right to exercise free speech about her abortion.

I have the right to exercise my right to free speech in called her a vile, disgusting excuse for a human.

You just did and no one should be allowed to take that right away from you.

Ditto-

Is this in response to me? I ask because of where you wrote your thoughts. If it is, would you clarify the difference in what I said about freedom of speech that you disagree with?

People want free speech but don't want to hear other people's opinions if they clash with their own

You confuse the right to free speech with the right to be heard. Everyone in the US has the right to free speech (within the confines of the forum they are using to speak), no one in the US had the right to be heard.

Sorry it was in response to Dame Quixote. Should have made that clear, sorry for the confusion.

Apparently, we also have the freedom to screw up when we speak..... ;-)

(happends to me all the time)

Thanks Ditto.

It happens to me all the too Brent. :-)

Justme-517872--

I'm pro-choice but appalled by the trend of people trying to make abortion look like it's no big deal....just another convenient BC option. And yes...no matter how you dress it up, that is what this woman is doing. And don't tell me it's about empowering women...if we were so worried about that we'd be pushing BC like mad, trying to give every woman control over her reproduction. An abortion means a woman failed to maintain control (for various reasons of course) and now has the consequence to deal with.

So the fact her life was in danger and she DID USE PROTECTION she still failed to maintain control and she would deserve to die instead of aborting?

OOOOOOOOk then.

she DID USE PROTECTION

According to her interview she used protection.

According to her blog she didn't.

According to he tweets "all three forms failed".

According to her three very different things happened.

Another poster said she's ticked at her boyfriend for knocking her up. Take your pick.

Exactly how was her life in danger? How many versions of that has she given so far?

This woman isn't an example of courage and education for women - she's an example of what Not to do in life.

And for all we know, she could have been lying about using birth control.

She probably said it thinking she would look better by looking responsible. LOL!

Exactly how was her life in danger?

Because she allegedly experienced 98 hours of labor (yeah right, in C-section happy America) and her pulse dropped when she got an epidural... LOL

How many versions of that has she given so far?

At least three.

ESSURE PROCEDURE

No reason why she couldn't have gotten this done.

(yeah right, in C-section happy America) Right, when c-sections are the in thing lol. (For the record ladies, if a doc tells you it's no big deal, we do it all the time - they're only referring to themselves, not what it's gonna be for you.) Sorry...little bit of p.o.'d still left over there lol.

And the whole thing about the blood pressure dropping. Yeah, mine did too. They kept giving me medicine to combat the effect but I still ended up getting sick. I would guess the fact that they were expecting it would be a decent indicator it's not so uncommon.

This woman has to be related to Octomom ;)

ESSURE PROCEDURE

No reason why she couldn't have gotten this done.

robynlewisTX,

I think I remember you mentioning you had this procedure. Is it expensive? Do you know how much it costs for those who don't have insurance? Does insurance cover this procedure? Is it reversible? Does Planned Parenthood offer this on a sliding scale for poverty stricken or low income women. It looks wonderful, especially since it's not invasive and doesn't mess with a woman's natural hormones. It's about time huh? Is there a failure rate?

Hi Lola!

Is it expensive?

Around 1,300 to 3,500. This is for those who don't have insurance.

Does insurance cover this procedure?

Most insurances do. You'll have to check your insurance to see if they cover it. You might have to cover the co-pay.

Is it reversible?

Since this is a fairly new type of birth control, I'm not quite sure. I believe some Dr.s from John Hopkins have had success doing so. Don't know if anyone has gotten pregnant yet.

Does Planned Parenthood offer this on a sliding scale for poverty stricken or low income women.

Yes, according to household size and income: from $500 to $2,500. Medicaid and Medicaid HMOs cover it also.

Is there a failure rate?

@!$%# I hope not! Seriously, not so far.(keeps fingers crossed!) It's only been around for 7 years, I believe. But no reports of accidental pregnancies.

I had no trouble. And it was quick, only lasted about 15 minutes and I was walking outta there!

Dame Quixote--

Where on her blog did it say she was not using birth control? I am looking at it right now, she said her birth control failed.

So do you know the stats of how many women think they are ready to have babies, have said baby and realize I @!$%#ed up? Hmmmm. What is worse, realizing at a very early stage I cannot handle this or realizing post birth I cannot handle this?

Also according to her blog her female family members went through lots of medical problems when they born, plus also according to her she was also born into a cult as well.

Also on her blog she doesn't want to be called a hero either.

It looks as if what she did was completely of sound, mind, and rational thinking, as she didn't want to suffer nor provide a horrible life for whatever could have been born that didn't kill her first even if the fetus would have survived birth.

I guess you did not bother to really read anything she did say did you.

Makes me wonder why Dame is so intent on libeling this woman, why the unbridled hatred and seeing the worst in her?

Did you miss where she said she was on three different types, then said the one failed and they weren't using condoms as consistently as they should have been? And really with the popularity of c-sections what are the odds a doc is going to let her sit there for four days in labor? And the drop from the epidural is pretty common. I'd have to ask have you read the tweets? Just from the ones I've seen copied and pasted on here no I have no respect for her. That on top of her turning her abortion into an international circus. Isn't there already mention of a book? I'm sure she'll make good money off of this. Kudos to her but in no way shape or form anything I'd want my daughter to view as an example to follow.

@!$%# I hope not!

LMAO! But seriously it sounds awsome. Since my husband has been snipped I no longer worry, but it sound like forms of birth control and sterilization are getting better and less invasive for women. Maybe one day my girls will benefit from it, and maybe by then there will be a even better form of BC for women AND men.

Thanks so much for the info robynlewisTX, I appreciate it.

Beautiful day in Texas today, love it, and no more snow please.

why the unbridled hatred and seeing the worst in her?

Probably cause she so Palin-like, ie. stupid, dumb, an attention-seeker. And like you always say Jones, she put herself out there, so she deserves everything she gets!

How dare this woman want to be open about abortion and her experience! Better to keep it mystified, in the closet. After all, if women know it isn't some horrifying experience, they might not be open to the anti-choicers' scare tactics and emotional ploys, right, Lewis?

The last thing your side wants is an open, honest view of abortion as it shows you anti-choicers to be out of gas.

How dare this woman want to be open about abortion and her experience!

Then she better be prepared to take the criticism along with her "wonderful open experience." I don't feel sorry for her one little bit. She's getting exactly what she deserves. She's nothing more than an attention seeking, dumb, lying murderess. The only person she's thinking of is HERSELF. Probably patting herself on the back and soaking up her new found fame.

Abortion can't too horrible or mystical, since millions are performed every year.

Lola,

You're welcome. Hopefully some day birth control will become 100% pregnancy free. Then maybe we won't be debating this anymore. :}

She's apparently been selectively deleting. Which I guess she did since bloggers were re-posting her stuff and showing the inconsistencies. Just visited. A lot of stuff was taken down.

Are you talking about FB? They have rules like Newsvine that have to be followed. It could be that FB is pulling some things off because of responses. It could be overloading the system. But no. It has to be that lying whore broadcasting her disgusting trashy makeup face all over the internet...

yes (sigh) that must be it, or the lies...

No, I have a link to her blog. There are missing posts. She's pulling them down.

I haven't sited any of her FB stuff.

Hopefully some day birth control will become 100% pregnancy free. Then maybe we won't be debating this anymore. :}

Wouldn't that be wonderful! Then what would we argue about? LOL :>)

robynlewisTX.--

Er well considering you thought an embryo at 4 weeks had fingernails and a heartbeat I wouldn't call Angie Jackson the dumb one here.

But I am quite sure you also never read about Jackson either and all she has gone through huh. Nope not at all.

Oh so because she made a conscious decision that was right for the embryo she is stupid and dumb? So really it would have been better for her to probably kill herself trying to deliver a baby that could have died as well?

My so much for you caring about life.

Frankly it is a hell of a lot better to abort an unwanted fetus than it is to deliver and have an unwanted child.

Wow talk about being self righteous. You are unbelievable with your attitude that all women who have abortions are because they are selfish and only think about themselves. Oh yeah I can show you numbers all right of born children that are indeed left behind and destroyed. But nice you think it is so much better to have an unwanted child another child to clog up the system and get lost than to prevent that happening. My you are indeed selfish and so holier than thou it is making my stomach turn.

------------------------------

Dame Quixote--

Really Sherlock? So you have kept track of Angie Jackson before any of this came to light?

robynlewisTX.--

You know what, I am going to give you a hard core lesson right now since I did my research about this you obviously never have.

See if this information can penetrate your mind. I did this research a few months ago, but well I certainly will update it, but just a summary for now

Now let us swing over to the US Department of Health and Human Services and look at child abuse statistics
Some figures from 2006

* Approximately 3.3 million allegations of child abuse and neglect including 6.0 million children were made to CPS agencies.

* About 62 percent (61.7%) of those allegations reached the report stage and either were investigated or received an alternative response.

* Nearly 30 percent (28.6%) of the investigations that reached the report stage determined that at least one child was a victim of child abuse or neglect.

US Depo of Health and Human Services
This is a worldwide little bit of data to ponder
The report includes the following overview statistics (section II. B., pp. 9-10, with references to specific studies provided for each):

* Almost 53,000 children died worldwide in 2002 as a result of homicide.

* Up to 80 to 98% of children suffer physical punishment in their homes, with a third or more experiencing severe physical punishment resulting from the use of implements.

* 150 million girls and 73 million boys under 18 experienced forced sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual violence during 2002.

* Between 100 and 140 million girls and women in the world have undergone some form of female genital mutilation/cutting. In sub-Saharan Africa, Egypt and the Sudan, 3 million girls and women are subjected to genital mutilation/cutting every year.

* In 2004, 218 million children were involved in child labour, of whom 126 million were in hazardous work.

* Estimates from 2000 suggest that 1.8 million children were forced into prostitution and pornography, and 1.2 million were victims of trafficking.

Worldwide Data of child abuse
Some more statistics of child abuse only in the US
Child Abuse Statistics in the USA

* An estimated 906,000 children are victims of abuse & neglect every year. The rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children

* Children ages 0-3 are the most likely to experience abuse. About 1 in 50 U.S. infants are victims of nonfatal child abuse or neglect in a year, according to the first national study of the problem in that age group done by the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention along with The Federal Administration for Children and Families.1

* 1,500 children die every year from child abuse and neglect. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.

* 79% of the children killed are younger than 4.

* 80% of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least 1 psychiatric disorder at the age of 21 (including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, & post-traumatic stress disorder)

* Abused children are 25% more likely to experience teen pregnancy

* Children who experience child abuse & neglect are 59% more likely to be arrested as a juvenile, 28% more likely to be arrested as an adult, and 30% more likely to commit violent crime.

* 14.4% of all men in prison in the United States were abused as children and 36.7% of all women in prison were abused as children

* Children who have been sexually abused are 2.5 times more likely develop alcohol abuse

* Children who have been sexually abused are 3.8 times more likely develop drug addictions

* Nearly 2/3's of the people in treatment for drug abuse reported being abused as children
Cycle of Abuse in USA

1/3 of abused and neglected children will eventually victimize their own children
Additional Statistics on Child Abuse inUSA

* There are nearly 3 million reports of child abuse made annually

* In 2003, there were 906,000 child abuse convictions

* The rate of child abuse is estimated to be 3 times greater than is reported.

* The rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children

* Children ages 0-3 are the most likely to experience abuse. They are victimized at a rate of 16.4 per 1,000

* 79% of the children killed are younger than 4.

* These statistics are from the Administration for Children & Families of the US Department of Health & Human Services "Child Maltreatment Report 2003"
Consequences of Child Abuse in the USA

* 80% of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least 1 psychiatric disorder at the age of 21 (including depression, anxiety, eating disorders, & post-traumatic stress disorder)

* Abused children are 25% more likely to experience teen pregnancy

* Abused teens are 3 times less likely to practice safe sex, putting them at greater risk for STDs

* These statistics are from the National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse & Neglect Information. Long-term Consequences of Child Abuse & Neglect 2005
The Link Between Abuse As a Child & Future Criminal Behavior

* 14.4% of all men in prison in the USA were abused as children

* 36.7% of all women in prison were abused as children

* Children who experience child abuse & neglect are 59% more likely to be arrested as a juvenile, 28% more likely to be arrested as an adult, and 30% more likely to commit violent crime.

These statistics are compiled from US Department of Justice Reports
The Link Between Child Abuse & Substance Abuse

* Children who have been sexually abused are 2.5 times more likely develop alcohol abuse

* Children who have been sexually abused are 3.8 times more likely develop drug addictions

* Nearly 2/3's of the people in treatment for drug abuse reported being abused as children

These statistics are compiled from the National Institute on Drug Abuse 2000 Report & Child Abuse & Neglect Study by Arthur Becker-Weidman PhD
Childhelp
More info Child help from 2006 info

Info of worldwide child abuse and welfare statistics a bit old, but with population increase the numbers would as well.
US DOJ of child sex trafficking, prostitution, and child exploitation.
So provided all of this information, what is really worse in the long run, what is more detrimental, abortion or the staggering numbers of child abuse in the US and worldwide

Something else for you to read

Why do so many women still die in pregnancy or childbirth?

Q: Why do so many women still die in pregnancy or childbirth?

A: Every minute, at least one woman dies from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth – that means 529 000 women a year. In addition, for every woman who dies in childbirth, around 20 more suffer injury, infection or disease – approximately 10 million women each year.

Five direct complications account for more than 70% of maternal deaths: haemorrhage (25%), infection (15%), unsafe abortion (13%), eclampsia (very high blood pressure leading to seizures – 12%), and obstructed labour (8%). While these are the main causes of maternal death, unavailable, inaccessible, unaffordable, or poor quality care is fundamentally responsible. They are detrimental to social development and wellbeing, as some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are 10 times more likely to die within two years of their mothers' death.

World Health Organization.

Some more information of the numbers of women dying in childbirth not to mention infants dying as well.

But hey as long as that baby is born who cares about the mother or the baby post birth right.

But yeah all those having an abortion they are all selfish murdering b**ches right.

Kshark,

That list of stats is horrifying. I knew about the death of women due to childbirth but I didn't know the figures of child abuse. I don't doubt them though! Considering what I hear in the streets, mass transit and so forth, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

Aren't those numbers on women dying in childbirth worldwide. What is the word population? So what percentage does that come out to be? Also, look at the main causes. Which types of countries do you suppose have the largest occurrence of those problems?

This girl claims she "died nearly four times" giving birth to her first kid. She also claims she was in labor for...96? 98? hours. With our c-section crazy doctors, what do you think the odds are the docs would let a woman labor for 4 days? Especially since she died so many times in the process. Do you honestly believe they wouldn't have done an emergency c-section? Are y'all really that flippin naive??? Good grief. Use a little critical thinking. This chick is not some heroine role model - she's a flippin idiot.

Btw...the comments about her taking down some of the posts - there were contradicting posts where she kept changing her story. Like where she said she was on 3 forms of BC, then she said the IUD failed and said they were using condoms but weren't using them consistently like they should have been.

We really should raise our standards a bit on who we consider to be a "hero". The exaltation of this girl shows how low we've sunk.

I'm not trying to contradict you, Justme, but the point of her tweeting, IMO, was the use of "social networks" and the RU486. I didn't think it was the birth control or labor. Maybe I'm wrong.

But just the inconsistencies and attitude imo indicate this woman is not someone to be exalted or to emulate. I don't want my daughter thinking it's a piece of cake to have an abortion and wouldn't want her getting her ideas from someone who (if you'll forgive the expression) really doesn't have her sh.. together (at least doesn't appear to). I'll make certain she does know what's out there and what her options are but I'm sure not going to lead her to believe it's a walk in the park. Quite frankly I would rather see someone like you acting in that capacity for her. I know you are a very thoughtful and responsible person who takes the subject seriously and realistically.

On one hand it is good that info on RU486 is getting out to a wide audience and is being put in the spotlight but I just really don't feel she is any kind of role model. I haven't been able to go out and took a look myself yet, but the others' previous posts were indicating she has "edited" out the obvious inconsistencies in her story.

justme, I said in one of my posts yesterday that this girl was not the ideal. I would definitely have chosen a more mature attitude and approach. I left out details on mine because I wanted to avoid the moral arguments of surrounding circumstances. I think this girl gave way too much info, maybe lying or trying to justify, and it took away her credibility and message. But it's out there. Bad impression and all.

Thank you so much for the kind words. We have differences of opinion but a deep respect and understanding. IMO. I'm sending a friend request. Hope you will accept.

Absolutely I will accept :) I consider it a compliment that you would send it!

The inconsistencies and likelihood of honesty in some of her statements imo put her somewhere in the same class as nuts like Octomom. Women need to know their options for sure but I don't feel people like her are the way to do it. You are right though if all that is put aside it is a positive thing in getting the info out there.

lovemyplanet-400560--

I actually did all of that research due to abortion debates. Because so many all talk about demanding the child born la la yet no one ever knows the numbers or the information regarding what happens to children post birth. So I went and did the research to counter the reasoning as to why abortions are not inhumane or why abortions are nor wrong or not a viable option, given the atrocities and numbers that are profoundly worse regarding children alive, compared to fetuses aborted.

So if ever there is an argument against those screaming we are baby killers or murderers, or selfish or egotistical, this information is shoved right in their faces showing just who is a lot worse. I would rather have aborted fetuses that will suffer in the living world than have MORE children born that will increase the already suffering number of children in the living world.

We have too many and nothing is being done as the CPS is a joke, foster homes and orphanages are overpopulated, the numbers of abused, molested, mistreated, neglected, raped, etc are a millions times worse than abortion.

----------------------

Justme-517872--

It is the world health organization website so I would guess that pertains to women worldwide. However, the population number of the world is either 7 Billion, which is horrible, or close to it, which is still horrible. The world is overpopulated and only getting worse.

Ok world population as of checked two seconds ago

World 6,807,691,309
23:26 UTC (EST+5) Mar 10, 2010
link

Now as for women in the US dying in childbirth the numbers are

Well this is from 2007

The maternal mortality rate in the U.S. is the highest it has been in decades, according to statistics released this week by CDC's National Center for Health Statistics, the AP/Washington Post reports. According to the figures, the U.S. maternal mortality rate was 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004. The rate was 12 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2003 -- the first year the maternal death rate was more than 10 since 1977 (Stobbe, AP/Washington Post, 8/24). A total of 540 women were reported to have died of maternal causes in 2004, 45 more than were reported in 2003, according to the report (NCHS report, 8/21).

link

And actually about C-Sections

Reasons for Increase
A rise in the number of caesarean sections -- which now account for 29% of all births -- could be a factor in the increased maternal mortality rate, some experts said. According to a review of maternal deaths in New York, excessive bleeding is one of the primary causes of pregnancy-related death, and women who have undergone several previous c-sections are at particularly high risk of death.

Same link as above.

This girl claims she "died nearly four times" giving birth to her first kid. She also claims she was in labor for...96? 98? hours. With our c-section crazy doctors, what do you think the odds are the docs would let a woman labor for 4 days? Especially since she died so many times in the process. Do you honestly believe they wouldn't have done an emergency c-section? Are y'all really that flippin naive??? Good grief. Use a little critical thinking. This chick is not some heroine role model - she's a flippin idiot.

You are asking questions to which she has not even provided an explanation, so you are throwing out assumptions.

We really should raise our standards a bit on who we consider to be a "hero". The exaltation of this girl shows how low we've sunk.

She did not even want to be called a hero. I am not calling her a hero. If people are calling her a hero it is because she did not hide about abortion and spoke up about it. She did not want to be closeted and could have helped others who have had or are thinking about having abortions letting them know it is all right, it is not as scary as everyone thinks it is.

Kshark, Once put into perspective that total number of deaths isn't quite as shocking. Still not good as far as the U.S. Between the c-sections and the fact that they send you packing to deal with the after effects on your own not at all surprising our numbers have increased.

Perhaps throwing out assumptions but can you really deny that certain parts of her story are really not likely to be true considering today's trends in regards to giving birth?

I don't recall either that she wanted to be called a hero...I'm referring to those who exalting her as some kind of herione doing womenkind a huge favor. If you set everything aside, there is the point that she has put it in the spotlight. Other than that I can think of nothing positive about her. If my daughter were facing pregnancy and surfing the net I would seriously hope this moron would not end up being any sort of guidance or example for her to follow. There are people on the vine who have spoken up about their abortion with thoughtfulness, and honesty who give the subject the level of seriousness it deserves and give a realistic account. Check out SWMissouriMule's story....she is the kind of person I would hope my daughter would find on the net and learn from - not some nutty person who can't keep their story straight, acting like abortion is no big deal, and making an international circus out of it.

Justme-517872--

It just shows material death is not uncommon. So if a mother's life is at risk why force her to deliver ya know.

Again I refrain from saying anything regarding her story. Until it is shown she is a liar, then we have a different story. At the moment, what we have is what she blogged, however, we also have her putting a completely new light on abortion. I know people that have had abortions, family members, friends, I have friends that have used the morning after pill as well, not knowing if they were pregnant or not. So frankly if abortion myths can be dispelled I am not complaining. Either which way no matter what a woman decides what she wants to do with her life and body that is her choice completely. Do I know if Angie Jackson is lying, not a clue, do you? Nope ya don't. So I guess the benefit of the doubt comes into play.

No according to her blog she did not want to be called a hero. She just wanted to put the facts out there. Look the women I have spoken with prior to their abortions they were scared of it. Not so much of aborting a fetus and making the right or wrong decision, but the procedure itself. Taking a pill compared to having a doctor remove a fetus is quite different and not as dramatic.

Look while many do not get certain behaviors of people I can. I can get how my neighbor could be a hooker, I could get how my ex boyfriend could be a fireman and then a vet surgeon, I could get how me working with animals I could go through it without much thought, I can get how all the tragedy I have gone through in my life not much phases me anymore. People become detached, desensitized it is what helps them go on and do what they have to do and survive. I get it. Not everyone really can it takes having seen and been through a lot to get to that place. It sucks, you are not completely void of empathy though some would think you are. I get her probably disposition regarding how she acted with what she was doing, presuming all was completely true.

You harden up, build up your walls, and just detach because of all you go through because if you could not do that you would fall apart and maybe never recover.

I might be called cold and callous at times but I can get how people can switch off and think something is no big deal even if others do think it is a big deal.

I might be called cold and callous at times but I can get how people can switch off and think something is no big deal even if others do think it is a big deal.

You make an awesome point on this. But why joke about flushing the carcass down the toilet? Why throw out taunts and insults at the religious? Between that and the inconsistencies in her story, I wouldn't want my daughter looking to her as any kind of example.

I could see where the belittlement of the seriousness of abortion might be a self-defense but how many young girls out there are going to realize that? And realize that it is a bit more serious than this girl is making it out to be? I wouldn't want my daughter to find out the hard way that flushing the carcass isn't nearly such a flippant thing. That would be a nasty lesson to learn. On that front I don't think she's doing too big of a favor in the educational department.

Her son was bipolar? If that is true then it is quite possible that she has problems that may not have been recognized or diagnosed.

Kshark, I know what you mean about "cold and callous." We can fool others all of the time. We can fool ourselves most of the time. But our hearts have a memory. Don't let it sneak up on you.

Justme-517872--

You make an awesome point on this. But why joke about flushing the carcass down the toilet? Why throw out taunts and insults at the religious? Between that and the inconsistencies in her story, I wouldn't want my daughter looking to her as any kind of example.

Let me tel ya something. I worked in vet hospitals, I saw death quite frequently with animals. When people were crying all of us that worked there, when the owners were gone would make jokes about the animals, it was the only way we could get through it all. If we let the death constantly riddle us and get to us we could not do our jobs. I remember one time have to help put down 15 cats that some crazy cat lady, literally, had. The vet and I joked of wahoo next, keep the parade a rolling. My ex is a vet surgeon, but prior to that he was a volunteer fireman. You know what they called dead bodies, crispy critters. Those who work in anything of such degree that revolves around any type of death we develop a very dark humor about it all because we still need to do the job. That is probably how this girl could do what she did, but if her story was correct of her life, she was born into a religious cult. Ergo she would taunt the religious people about what she was doing as she turned Atheist.

This is what I mean by being cold and callous, though one is that way during what they need to do, but possibly after whatever job they are doing is complete they switch. She apparently, if she speaks the truth has been through a lot, she was also an addict, she also suffered from an eating disorder, this girl was messed up from day one it would appear.

Well then don't have your daughter looking at her as an example, but you also don't have many women always that willing to actually step up to the plate and being serious of abortion and explaining it.

I could see where the belittlement of the seriousness of abortion might be a self-defense but how many young girls out there are going to realize that? And realize that it is a bit more serious than this girl is making it out to be? I wouldn't want my daughter to find out the hard way that flushing the carcass isn't nearly such a flippant thing. That would be a nasty lesson to learn. On that front I don't think she's doing too big of a favor in the educational department.

Only let me point something out to you, the embryo was 4 weeks old. You wouldn't even see a 4 week old embryo. The size of a 4 week old embryo is 0.2 inches. That is about 5 millimeters. Please go look at a ruler. This is not a developed embryo to where you could even really see it was a fetus or a baby. Please go look at the images I posted in 8.26 to see what a 4 week old embryo looks like. It is still more of a blastocyst. How many women really have been told of how it feels to take the aftermorning pill? How many even really know what it feels like? Probably none really as no one talks about it unless it is their closest friends that they know that they can share with. Otherwise who is really going to talk about it. None.

As for young girls, well frankly I would blame the parents for not educating their young girls enough about birth control. At that point if a young girl does get pregnant she is scared to death of even letting anyone know let alone her parents for complete fear of being a failure and looking like a horrible daughter to them. Young people would relate to young people before they would really speak up to their parents.

SW Missouri Mule--

I have, unfortunately or fortunately, mastered the ability to switch on and off with things.

Repsectfully, if someone believes life begins at conception, they will never agree that abortions are anything but "killing a baby". That impasse is permanent.

I completely agree with you that a woman forced to make that type of decision is put in a no-win situation and there are no easy answers, as I have told you inthe past.

Yes you have, Brent, and I remember. I wish others could at least look at the woman. As you said, it's a no-win situation. Thanks.

SW, I'm what you call a "Compassionate Conservative"......

Brent-320354

Repsectfully, if someone believes life begins at conception, they will never agree that abortions are anything but "killing a baby". That impasse is permanent.

I understand that if a person believes life begins at conception they will always be against abortion. But is it automatic that they also be unable to distinquish between a zygote, an embryo and a fetus?

Natural, spontaneous abortions often happen before a woman is even aware that conception has taken place.

SW Missouri Mule--

Awwww but shhhhhhh don't you know our stories, yes I am female, are not supposed to be in public. The lovely suffer in silence idea. Women should be seen and not heard yadda yadda.

Quite frankly if any woman ever thinks of having an abortion you talk to others about it, for the most part in my opinion. A support group is needed instead of women being vilified and made to feel like garbage for their decisions.

It is very disconcerting that people just do not want to even listen go the reasons as to why it happens.

No Kate, and you forgot blastocyst. And I understand that miscarriages happen often.

Kshark, a support group is needed! A pre-abortion support group. We could gather at a house nearthe clinics for ICED tea party meetings. We'll wear flour-sack cloth hoods to hide our identities. Of course we should talk about it and share our stories and not be afraid to stand up for our rights to govern our personal affairs.

If a fetus dies at the sixth months the mother survives. If the mother dies at sixth month the fetus goes with her. Who has the right over whom?

Sure, men are welcome to those opinions. They are not welcome to force the woman to carry the pregnancy.

Dame Quixote, How do you feel about the women in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s when Roe v/ Wade was heard and abortion was made legal some women might stop dying. Do you think women your grandmother or great-grandmother's age were partying like "girls gone wild?" I'm sure that there is at least one woman in your family who has had an abortion but that is not something that's talked about.

What's even more sickening is that she admits that she'll do it again!

So, in essence, she'll be using abortion as birth control. God in Heaven must be weeping. Unbelievable.

If she's SOOO afraid of dying due to pregnancy, and claims that tubals and vasectomies are 100%, then why in the hell doesn't she have a hysterectomy? That's 100%.

I had the Essure procedure after my 4 child was born last year and according to the literature provided no one has had as unintended pregnancy from this form of birth control. Why doesn't she have it done to her too?

Sounds to me like she's on some kind of publicity seeking ploy. Just like everyone else trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

I'm sorry but I don't care how progressive America gets, it's not appropriate to just broadcast your abortion. Making it "no big deal" makes it more likely to be used as birth control. Which if I understand correctly, the left was still against. But they change with the wind so who knows?

This generation does nothing but broadcast their sexual encounters, they have next to no self respect, and something that was allegedly (according to the liberals) supposed to be something between just a woman and her doctor is now being broadcast like it was a trip to the mall.

I'm sure in six months the "progressives" will praise terrorists as they tweet their attacks. They'll hail it as a "point of view we can learn from"

Don't speak for my grandmothers. They were LADIES. They had a lot of children and big hearts and it was my grandmothers who instilled etiquette in me. My mother was a 60's wild child but as proud of her liberal-ness was, she managed not to have an abortion either. If she did, she'd probably only tell her family. Not broadcast it on social media.

I'm just waiting for a 7 month pregnant woman to go to an abortion clinic and film it, so everybody can see how she's not really killing an innocent baby.

I'm sure THAT'LL be just great too. Just another public service announcement from Planned Parenthood!

Yeah, from the same Planned Parenthood who sells abortions when their bottom line is suffering?

RU-486 is a great product for them. In the 7-8% of women it won't work on, they will have to come back and purchase a surgical abortion.

Wow, for anti-Capitalists, the liberals really have it down.

If it's just something between a woman and her doctor then why do so many people want to have a say in what happens between a woman and her doctor? And don't think "ladies" didn't do it because they did. The difference is that they didn't talk about it because of the SHAME put on them by those other "ladies" who wag their tongues in public and sin in private.

I'm thinking this woman (Ms Jackson) wants a show on MSNBC. I hear they'll have an opening in prime time soon..... ;-)

Last I looked it takes both a man and a woman to create a baby. If a man was willing to take complete responsibility for the baby should a woman be allowed to abort it? Of course you can go on about how it's her body and such but it's "their" baby.

As for this publicity stunt maybe she can take pictures next time.

This generation does nothing but broadcast their sexual encounters, they have next to no self respect, and something that was allegedly (according to the liberals) supposed to be something between just a woman and her doctor is now being broadcast like it was a trip to the mall.

Oh look, older people pining away about the good old days. Through the magical lens of revisionist history, we can convert any decade in the last hundred years to an idyllic time of character and virtue, and whatever other intangible qualities we think to assign to a people who have had the same motivations and behavioral patterns since the beginning of time.

"LADIES," sheesh.

Oh look, older people pining away about the good old days. Through the magical lens of revisionist history, we can convert any decade in the last hundred years to an idyllic time of character and virtue, and whatever other intangible qualities we think to assign to a people who have had the same motivations and behavioral patterns since the beginning of time.

"LADIES," sheesh.

There's no revisionist history in my family tree. My grandmother died a while back and was a true lady to the end. She didn't have to flash men in her day to get people to like her. She had a personality and was witty and charming. My grandmother was one of my strongest allies in my unintended pregnancy and though I lived far a way her words of encouragement are what made me strong.

"Older people" aren't a bunch of idiots you know. Despite what Obama will have you believe.

She had a personality and was witty and charming

There are many women today who are all of those things. There are many women from your grandmother's time who were trashy and smutty as well. Remember the oldest profession? Yep, there were even prostitutes in your grandmothers day!

I used to think that age granted wisdom, but I was sorely disabused. Most of the elderly and simply floating through time on a gentle sea of confirmation bias, just like everybody else.

Older people, younger people, mostly just a bunch of idiots. And history indicates that it was ever thus.

Yep, there were even prostitutes in your grandmothers day!

Shhhh, that isn't discussed in polite company.

Dame Quixote, are saying my mother was a whore?

She didn't have to flash men in her day to get people to like her

My mother was married at 15 which was common in that day and part of the US. She was with my father for 47 years until he died. She was a lady when necessary but more importantly she was a woman. I was the 8th born when she was 35 and she had the illegal abortion at 39. My brother was born at 42. My mother was taking care of her grandchildren while pregnant with her own child. That is a woman. And she never said a cuss word in her whole life and read the Bible every day!

Oh come on....we all know teens back then were having orgies like they do now and shooting each other up in school. And of course police presence was normal in the h.s. hallways. And ALL girls back then used indecent photos of themselves as "pick up lines" for guys they were interested in. Friends with benefits was also a very common practice.

Maybe there were some societal issues back then, but in fighting those we have managed to "throw the baby out with the water". If you're old enough to understand that saying then you're old enough to realize how much we've lost.

Oh come on....we all know teens back then were having orgies like they do now and shooting each other up in school.

Yes, they were. You didn't have anywhere near the media exposure back then, but yes. Do you know which decade had the worst school massacre in United States history? You'll be surprised.

And of course police presence was normal in the h.s. hallways.

It probably should have been.

And ALL girls back then used indecent photos of themselves as "pick up lines" for guys they were interested in.

This is an effect of a culture where digital imaging devices are ubiquitous, and the various forms of media are widely available. I don't think this is indicative of any substantial change in motivations or behavior. Women have always dressed to attract men.

People complain about grinding at school dances, but dancing has always been about @!$%#ing, too.

Maybe there were some societal issues back then, but in fighting those we have managed to "throw the baby out with the water". If you're old enough to understand that saying then you're old enough to realize how much we've lost.

I'm not convinced the baby went with the bath water. This is exactly what I'm talking about though when I say that people always put on rose colored glasses when referring to the past. We live in a time where we are making great strides towards racial equality, we have women in board rooms (although still making, on average, 70-some cents for every dollar I do), crime and youth violence is statistically at an extremely low level, and yet people still think that the country is heading in the wrong direction.

you're old enough to realize how much we've lost.

Yeah...I sure do miss the Communist witch hunt, when cigarrettes were good for you, when there were no seatbelts, the invention of the hydrogen bomb (thanks, grandpa!), authorities started worrying about the huge use of narcotics among teens (1950) http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/e1950/narcotics_addicts_on_increase.htm, and blacks had to sit in the back of the bus.....

Ahhh...the good ol' days......

SW Missouri Mule
Where, out of what I wrote did you get me calling your mom a whore?

Justme, we haven't lost a damn thing. You know why things looked better back then? Because you were a child and your parents like all parents shielded you from the real world until you were old enough to understand. It could be argued that the world of today is no different but for the technology available to us.

....we all know teens back then were having orgies like they do now and shooting each other up in school. And of course police presence was normal in the h.s. hallways.

No orgies back then huh? I don't suppose you ever heard of the Roman empire. Sexting is new because cell phones are new but do you doubt that had they been available that teens would not have discovered that particular use for them? No teen violence huh? One of the most popular movies ever made, West Side Story was all about gang-banging. Do you think they pulled that story out of their ass? No police presence in HS back then huh? Do you remember when school Busing was introduced in the 70's to address defacto segregation in US schools? Or how about this link which shows the history of gun-related violence in Schools from 1940 to 1959. Societal issues have not changed one iota and therein lies the problem. Instead of applying outdated moral views, which didn't work then anymore than they work now, perhaps an update of those views is long overdue.

So dressing to attract men is the same as giving them nude photos of yourself?

So the voilence and gang-banging "West Side Story" was the norm for the suburbs back then? Not mine. As a matter of fact, I don't believe the story actually glorified violence but rather depicted the negative consequences.

And really you're going to use the segregation fight as an example to compare to everyday police patrols in our h.s. hallways? That's not even apple to oranges - that's apples to pineapples there. I can't imagine why we would have needed regular police patrols...to contain the violent outbursts of spit balls and food fights?

andAnd sure, it was "normal" back then for a guy to be beating the living crap out of a girl in the middle of the street while everybody stands around and watches. Also normal for three security guards to stand and watch while a young girl gets the living crap beat out of her.

And normal for 30 people to stand around and watch and/or participate while a young girl is raped for hours.

The Roman empire??? Lol...seriously?? Please explain how you're tying in the Roman Empire into a comparison of America's older values vs current ones?

And yes the waltz is definitely as provocative as grinding. Or how about the Twist?

But as I made my way through the results, I found that eighteen of the first two hundred were reports of school shootings in which one or more people were killed or wounded.

There were three suicides and six homicides among these eighteen incidents. More than half involved a student perpetrator, and at least three were accidental shootings on school grounds.

So let's assume the suicides also involved killing others first just to be generous. So that leaves 15 incidents in 19 years if you take out the accidental ones. Actually in reading the cases, that's overly generous. Not surprising most of them are in New York. So where are the cases of wide-spread school shooters like the ones we have today? I missed that part.

Ah and just to keep with the article it was perfectly normal for a girl to make a public circus out of her abortion also.

And normal for 30 people to stand around and watch and/or participate while a young girl is raped for hours.

It wasn't normal then and it isn't normal now. The difference between your grandma's time and todays time is that these incidents can be captured, recorded, and distributed cheaply and quickly so you hear about them all. Don't dilute yourself into thinking pedophilia, violence, bigotry, and hate was invented in the 20th century.

Oh please Justme, first you imply that these things just did not happen, and then get indignant when examples of these things are pointed out.

So the voilence and gang-banging "West Side Story" was the norm for the suburbs back then? Not mine. As a matter of fact, I don't believe the story actually glorified violence but rather depicted the negative consequences.

Nope, never said it was the norm, it's not even the norm today. You implied by your statement that it's a new phenomena. False.

And really you're going to use the segregation fight as an example to compare to everyday police patrols in our h.s. hallways? That's not even apple to oranges - that's apples to pineapples there. I can't imagine why we would have needed regular police patrols...to contain the violent outbursts of spit balls and food fights?

Nope again. I am going to use it as refutation of your statement that police presence in schools is a relatively new thing. There were cops in schools before, maybe not in yours but I saw them frequently in mine. But then again I grew up in the city where the vast majority of the population lives, 81% of the US as a matter of fact.

And sure, it was "normal" back then for a guy to be beating the living crap out of a girl in the middle of the street while everybody stands around and watches. Also normal for three security guards to stand and watch while a young girl gets the living crap beat out of her.

Never even mentioned that one but since you bring it up let's tackle domestic violence shall we. I seem to remember that not so long ago domestic violence was regarded as a private issue. Men beating their wives were rarely punished as a matter of fact. Part of everyday life in the good ole days. But hey beating the living crap out of your wife in your own home is not as bad as beating her in public now is it.

And normal for 30 people to stand around and watch and/or participate while a young girl is raped for hours.

Oh you're not going to like this one at all. You do realize that for rape to be punishable in the 1950s it had to be accompanied by extreme physical violence. So if the woman didn't fight back, or if her size or incapacity made the use of force unnecessary, then there was no crime. Changes to the law began in the 1960s to make it enough that the crime was against the victim's will, without a showing of physical force. Read more here. Standing around and doing nothing is bad, but not punishing it at all is even worst don't you think?

The Roman empire??? Lol...seriously?? Please explain how you're tying in the Roman Empire into a comparison of America's older values vs current ones?

I wasn't. Just pointing out that orgies were not an invention of cellphone carrying teenagers. Try to keep up.

And yes the waltz is definitely as provocative as grinding. Or how about the Twist?

How about the 1920's charleston which was at the time and i go back to wikipedia for this:

Charleston is most frequently associated with white flappers and the speakeasy. Here, these young women would dance alone or together as a way of mocking the "drys," or citizens who supported the Prohibition amendment, as the Charleston was then considered quite immoral and provocative.

Different era same problems huh?

As for school shootings being more wide-spread, I disagree. Population has tripled in The US since 1940. More schools, more guns, more angry kids. As a percentage of population, violence in schools has probably remained about the same.

Lastly, about the circus. My advice to you is not to buy a ticket to the show. If more people did just that then it wouldn't be much of a circus.

Dame Quixote = Where, out of what I wrote did you get me calling your mom a whore?

Because your grandmother was such a lady and would never have done this or that. I don't know how old your grandmother is/was. My mom was born in 1919. You think no woman in your family would have had an abortion because they were"ladies." Ladies would not have abortions? Is that what you are saying? They did. It was always a secret. Girls would be sent to their aunts house for a nice long visit or would go to boarding school or oversees. Moms would go stay with their sisters for a few days. They didn't call it an abortion or a teen pregnancy given for adoption. Men beat their wives and girlfriends behind closed doors. Fathers, uncles, cousins molested family members while children were told to watch out for strangers. It all happened then as it does now but it was hidden.

Women smoked behind the barn. Men snuck liquor. teens in love made out in the hay loft or the back seat or balcony of the movie show. My grandmother smoked pot back around the turn of the century and her boss gave her little white pills so she could work faster. Nothing has changed except that it is more in the open. Just as you type nasty things about this woman, the church women got together and said nasty things in whispers about younger, prettier women. It hasn't changed.

My mother was as much a lady as your grandmother. My mother had an abortion. You really would be surprised the stories in your own family that have been kept secret. Skeletons in the closet.

Dame Quixote--

Yeah, it's all about information... Whatever. Tweeting your abortion is showboating and disgusting.

However unfortunate, I don't expect much from the "girls gone wild" generation.

Wow what an obnoxious comment.

My mother was as much a lady as your grandmother. My mother had an abortion. You really would be surprised the stories in your own family that have been kept secret. Skeletons in the closet.

No I wouldn't. We're honest. So you're calling my grandmother (born in 1925) a LIAR?

Dame Quixote-

There's no revisionist history in my family tree

How exactly would you even know if there was. People who revise their history are not likely to share that information in the first place.

There's no revisionist history in my family tree

Unless you were there, in the room how can you be 100% certain?

Dame Quixote-

So you're calling my grandmother (born in 1925) a LIAR?

nobody called your grandmother a liar. I don't see what 1925 has to do with it. Were there no LIARS that year?

Things did change. The difference was those things were not accepted as the normal behavior. Yeah, there are skeletons in all of our closets but bad things happen and did happen but that is no reason for me to go out and suddenly make those bad things the acceptable normal standard on how we should present ourselves.

The girls who slept around were called sluts. They were looked down on. The girls who didn't. You know the ones the boys actually respected and admired. You know the girls that didn't sleep around? Ohh... I forgot. You wouldn't know what that is. But you know it's soooo much better because it's open!!! Yeah!!! Clap your hands because it's open. Isn't it sooo wonderful.

You don't get it... Society needs a portion of it to be bad. What's the fun in life when there isn't the bad. When there isn't any rules to break then what's the fun in life? I guess sleeping with barn animals is still bad but really? Barn Animals? Have we really sunk that low that you have to sleep with Barn Animals to be bad?

So what is the new low? We know it isn't tweeting to the world as your sitting on the toilet getting ready to flush your recently expelled baby down the drain. That's just being "open". Isn't it so much better than the old days? Well isn't it?

nobody called your grandmother a liar. I don't see what 1925 has to do with it. Were there no LIARS that year?

To be fair, she was just performing the same type of bizarre extrapolation that was used on her a few posts prior.

Things did change. The difference was those things were not accepted as the normal behavior. Yeah, there are skeletons in all of our closets but bad things happen and did happen but that is no reason for me to go out and suddenly make those bad things the acceptable normal standard on how we should present ourselves.

The girls who slept around were called sluts. They were looked down on. The girls who didn't. You know the ones the boys actually respected and admired. You know the girls that didn't sleep around? Ohh... I forgot. You wouldn't know what that is. But you know it's soooo much better because it's open!!! Yeah!!! Clap your hands because it's open. Isn't it sooo wonderful.

You don't get it... Society needs a portion of it to be bad. What's the fun in life when there isn't the bad. When there isn't any rules to break then what's the fun in life? I guess sleeping with barn animals is still bad but really? Barn Animals? Have we really sunk that low that you have to sleep with Barn Animals to be bad?

So what is the new low? We know it isn't tweeting to the world as your sitting on the toilet getting ready to flush your recently expelled baby down the drain. That's just being "open". Isn't it so much better than the old days? Well isn't it?

This is absurd. All of it. Every single paragraph.

The difference was those things were not accepted as the normal behavior. Yeah, there are skeletons in all of our closets but bad things happen and did happen but that is no reason for me to go out and suddenly make those bad things the acceptable normal standard on how we should present ourselves.

You think it better that women were shamed and felt there was no recourse for things like unintended pregnancies and abuse?

You think it better that women were shamed and felt there was no recourse for things like unintended pregnancies and abuse?

So throw out all morals and values iso fixing the problem? Do you really think abuse doesn't happen anymore? Do you really think the laws truly protect abused women? There are tons of dead women out there who would testify to the fallacy of that belief if they could I'm sure. I think Jason's post was dead on. Iso pushing BC we just make it "ok" and "normal" for everyone to sleep around? Okay and normal for a girl to sit on a toilet tweeting to the world that she's about to flush her fetus down the toilet? What a lovely world we're creating.

So throw out all morals and values iso fixing the problem?

Your morals and values may not be mine, and they aren't in the law for good reason. You might think homosexuality immoral or sleeping with a person outside of marriage immoral, that's nice for you. But don't go trying to put your morals in the law.

Iso pushing BC we just make it "ok" and "normal" for everyone to sleep around?

People will have sex. Better that there be BC and no shame for it. I'm not a big fan of shaming people for normal behavior.

Wrong. I don't take issue with homosexuals and don't condone denying them equal rights.

Also wrong...I live with my boyfriend and our child so can't exactly slam sex outside of marriage now can I?

I've never proposed putting my morals into law but tossing them all out the window sure isn't doing our society any favors.

For some people normal behaviour does not consist of screwing whoever is available when the mood hits. You don't have to be a whore to need BC. We don't have to pretend totally loose morality goes hand in hand with promoting BC. As a matter of fact, it would be pretty crappy to preach to women that only "bad" women need BC. Not to mention totally counterproductive in trying to reduce the number of abortions. It really is possible to handle reality without tossing all morals and values out the window.

Many would say you aren't moral, and are living in sin with your boyfriend. Be careful when you point fingers and claim others aren't "moral" when you aren't a paragon yourself.

Many would say you aren't moral, and are living in sin with your boyfriend. Be careful when you point fingers and claim others aren't "moral" when you aren't a paragon yourself.

Or else they are just being truthful about what the Word says and about themselves as well...

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. ~ Romans 7:15

Paraphrased:

What I know to be true and what I should do

I seldom do if ever

While what is wrong and doesn't belong

I do all the time (not clever)!

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone! Just because one proclaims the truth but isn't able to live up to the standard only reflects their humanity (imperfection and carnal nature).

Thank God for Christ Son, whose shed blood covers all my imperfections!

Again, Mic, your beliefs aren't law. We don't live in a theocracy.

Angie on Twitter and FB may not have been the ideal person to use the social media but someone had to speak out about the RU486 and someone had to speak out on the media used by the younger generations. She didn't do it in a way I would have but I am 55 not 35 or 25. I use Twitter to get info not to give it. She is an ice breaker. I applaud her for her attempt to educate.

This is absurd. All of it. Every single paragraph.

Yeah. It's completely absurd.

Thank you Mic.

Many would say you aren't moral, and are living in sin with your boyfriend. Be careful when you point fingers and claim others aren't "moral" when you aren't a paragon yourself.

That's right - some would. My church is one of them. I can not be baptized or join the church unless my living arrangement changes. At least I'm not pretending that it is okay and normal and everyone should accept it because we all have our freedoms to do as we please and no one has the right to judge and all that other horse crap people use to justify their anything goes approach.

I do not pretend to be perfect but neither do I believe that I should lower my standards and stop trying to do better in life. I already know I'll get jumped for this post lol....not exactly the "in" opinion nowadays but oh well. Btw Jonesgirl, in various conversations I've had with you you've been one of the more judgemental people toward anyone not "on your side" so let's try not to get too terribly hypocritical okay?

At least I'm not pretending that it is okay and normal and everyone should accept it because we all have our freedoms to do as we please and no one has the right to judge and all that other horse crap people use to justify their anything goes approach.

So you are disgusted by your own life? That seems unhealthy.

We do have our freedoms, no? You can judge, but since you are in a glass house, you might not want to.

I guess you prefer shame and self-loathing. Sad.

Jonesgirl, I love how you take what people say, make assumptions and then invent things about those assumptions. It provides a bit of comedy relief if nothing else. I would talk a bit about my choices and current situation but not to you. You are entirely too hateful and judgemental of a person for me to have any desire to talk about it with you.

I can assure you I'm not in a glass house. I have no issue with the fact that I am a work in progress. Sad that you think that requires shame and self-loathing. I hope for your sake you believe you are perfect.

Jonesgirl, I love how you take what people say, make assumptions and then invent things about those assumptions. It provides a bit of comedy relief if nothing else. I would talk a bit about my choices and current situation but not to you. You are entirely too hateful and judgemental of a person for me to have any desire to talk about it with you.

I'm simply going by what you posted. You seem to want people to be ashamed of who they are, while you yourself can do what you want.

The judgmental person here is you. And like all faux-lip-service Christians, you'll never see that. You'll sit and judge and judge and not realize your closed mind is the problem. You come across as bitter, hate-filled and very unhappy in your life. Hope things improve for you!

You seem to want people to be ashamed of who they are, while you yourself can do what you want.

Uh no. That's the smoke screen you want to throw up at anyone who doesn't pat you on the head and say ohhhhh it's okay....morals and values are soooo outdated anyhow. That way you can do whatever you please and we'll all pretend it's all perfectly okay cuz everyone does it and morals and values are stupid anyhow.

The judgmental person here is you. And like all faux-lip-service Christians, you'll never see that. You'll sit and judge and judge and not realize your closed mind is the problem. You come across as bitter, hate-filled and very unhappy in your life. Hope things improve for you!

Do you actually believe this? You are one of the most hateful and judgemental people I've seen on the vine. If you weren't so busy inventing your image of me, you'd realize how incredibly stupid your "faux-lip-service Christian" comment really is. Almost as ignorant as your comment about my "closed mind". The rest of your completely ignorant judgements of me are just as far out of reality as the rest of it. The only thing your hateful rants accomplish is to make you look like what you are.

I have plenty enough friends who know better and quite frankly I don't care what your wild imaginings of me produce. I have no interest in wasting energy on hate-filled, ignorant, judgemental people anyhow. I prefer people who are capable of rational thought, intelligent discussion, and accepting the fact that not everyone thinks the same way they do.

Buena suerte con tus problemas.

Maria, my mother gave birth to 9 children. The first at 15 years old and the last at 42. Her whole life was spent raising children. When the older ones married and left the house, they would lose their jobs and move back with a spouse and 2 children. My father had to support them all on a maintenance man's pay. Mom had an illegal abortion when I was about 4 and I remember her bleeding and going to the hospital. She nearly died. I didn't know that was what made her sick until I finally shared my "secret" with her. We don't need to go back to that time. Your first grade teacher was very vise. You are beautiful.

Maria, you are talking about using abortions for routine birth control. That is an asinine concept and really makes me question your "story". How about getting your tubes tied? Husband getting a vasectomy? Condoms? Sponge? Diaphragm? Any other ideas?

Hi Brent, Maria clearly stated that these experiences happened to her mother, who was Catholic. Catholics don't look too highly on birth control, and never have.

We live in a day where we can read and disseminate the news in real time. I don't tweet or FB but I do realize that for many of the younger generation, social networking is a normal part of life. I wouldn't personally choose to share details of an abortion like Angie did, but it is her choice to do so, and it is her choice to have an abortion. Thanks for seeding this, John. I appreciate the discussion.

Either way ann, it's a no-winnner.

ann in Texas--

Not just that birth control is NOT covered by health care.

She just did not know how to stop the children from coming out of her.

I can think of at least one way to not keep having children and it doesn't involve Birth Control. Your Mom had a choice and she made hers. You are making your choice and you will have to live with yours.

What Angie did actually was giving useful information to women out there that have chosen abortion,but really would want to do it as early as possible and even at home!

Yea let's give them the opportunity to abort the child before they really have a chance to think through their decision. Just pop a pill from the convenience of home before your conscience kicks in! It is obvious that your goal isn't reducing abortions.

The method that Angie used RU486 is available and more women need to know about it, so while you think she was flaunting "abortion" I think she was making a very much needed statement, about yet one more choice that a woman can make in this situation.

"You like the speed of fast food? The convenience of Walmart? ALL NEW for a generation that can't delay gratification, at-home instant abortifacient!"

You sound like an infomercial for this pill of death.

She was 4 weeks and 1 day along, when she found out she was pregnant. So the whole "tearing a baby apart" cry, could not be used. Angie was also explaining that it was not as bad as she thought it would be...and this too is something that women need to hear,to know, that there is another option to the clinic setting for the doctor assisted abortion.

That is exactly right. Women need to know that killing thier child will be painless to them (though concern for the pain/death of the child is secondary) *sarcasm. This is simply a more "civilized"method of committing a barbaric act.

Abortion has always been, and will always be. The real choice is in keeping it safe and legal for the women that need to choose that option.

Why should murder of a child be safe or legal for a woman? Should we make morally reprehensible acts like robbery a little safer for the robber? Abortion should be illegal, and women who attempt to murder their unborn children should be left to the natural consequences of their act if they choose a "back-alley abortion."

Of course we all would like to see the need for abortion abolished...and that will only be accomplished through education along with better and more affordable birth control,

The so called "need" for abortion will be abolished when it is made illegal. People will be forced to live with the consequences of their actions. Instead of teaching about birth control, self control should be taught. Abstinence until marriage would eliminate the need for all abortions.

and the information about emergency contraception that is available over the counter for young women aged 17 and up.....who have had unprotected sex!

You do realize that this "emergency" contraception is an abortifacient don't you? So you saying that we should reduce the need for abortion by giving people more information about the convenient at-home abortion pill, is ridiculous.

Here are some cold hard facts about the morning after pill:

How Does it Work?
The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three modes of action (as does the regular birth control pill); that is, it can work in one of three ways:

1. The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or
2. Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released from the ovary;
3. It can irritate the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so as to inhibit implantation.

Keep in mind that fertilization (the union of female ovum, or egg, and male sperm) occurs in the fallopian tube and that fertilization marks the beginning of a new human life - and the beginning of the pregnancy. The newly created child then travels down the fallopian tube to the uterus (womb) where he or she implants. Implantation is necessary for the new child to receive nourishment from the mother and continue developing. The journey from the fallopian tube to the womb takes between five and seven days during which pregnancy cannot be readily detected.

Therefore, if a woman ingests emergency contraception after fertilization has taken place, the third mode of action can occur. The lining of the uterus can be altered causing the woman's body to reject the living human embryo, making implantation impossible and the child will die. This result is called a chemical abortion; therefore emergency contraception is an abortifacient.

http://www.morningafterpill.org/how-does-it-work.html

So many ways to minimize the need for abortion if we would just talk about it! Get the information out there to where it needs to be. Stop putting shame on women for doing what is best for them and possibly their families, at this point in their lives.

These statements are so ludicrously contradictory that I cannot even comment.

Angie actually did a public service...young women will gather more knowledge because of her "showboating" about one more alternative to a dr assisted abortion.

While nobody, but Angie (maybe not even her) can know her true motive for publicizing the murder of her child, we can safely say that she has done a disservice to humankind, and especially those who have no voice - - the unborn.

JayisunJ--

Are you a guy rt? If you are a guy then thank your f-ing lucky stars a thousand times over that you will not ever have to go through what WE women do go through.

Darlene, are you aware of the type of "procedure" she had?

She was only 4 weeks along in the pregnancy and she took a pill, Darlene, and went home.

And as she said, it was not that bad, it was not that scary....and with all the ruckus about "tearing babies apart" It would seem you'd be happier to see a woman doing something before that could happen...

Morals have not changed much when it comes to abortion, just now it is safe and legal and more women are not bleeding to death from the back alley butchers that were performing abortions in their kitchens...sending women home to either bleed to death or maybe die from infection...

wasn't a "Baby" John....

not yet....

bleeding to death from the back alley butchers that were performing abortions in their kitchens...sending women home to either bleed to death or maybe die from infection...

This wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been trying to kill their babies, now would it?

Answer John's question Sara, where did the 'baby' go?

Oh, and at four weeks the BABY has a heartbeat and fingernails and it's own DNA. But it's still not real, right?

robynlewistx I DID answer his question....and I'll thank you to stop acting like you're the boss here, demanding answers!

There is NO BABY at 4 weeks....my dear, babies are those darling little bundles of joy , that Mommies take home from the hospital. You have FOUR and you don't know that?

Actually robynlewistx a 4 week EMBRYO is the size of a poppy seed!

And again, no one is killing babies, that would be murder.

and your opinion was that there was a baby that came up missing?

Oh, and at four weeks the BABY has a heartbeat and fingernails and it's own DNA. But it's still not real, right?

And three kids of its own, a lovely three-bedroom townhouse, and a diversified stock portfolio.

What a sad commentary on America.

robynlewisTX. - Can you point to the fingernails in this image? Thanks...

http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-4-weeks

Here's one for you:

http://www.michaelclancy.com/

robynlewistx I DID answer his question..

No you didn't.

my dear, babies are those darling little bundles of joy, that Mommies take home from the hospital. You have FOUR and didn't know that?

And just WHERE do you think these darling little bundles of joy come from in the first place, dear? They come from Mommie's (egg) and Daddie's (sperm). Don't YOU know that?

sarah, some info for you..i dont know what state you live in but here in FL if you cause the fetus to die in a pregnant woman you can be charged with manslaughter up to murder depending on the circumstances. so having said that...once a woman is diagnosed as being pregnant here...its a "baby" baby!

I'm going with - doesn't look like a baby yet, but it does look like something. Lets see..

We all had health class didn't we? heres a pic:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/4%20week%20fetus/NorthernMomToBe/week4-embryo-and-info.jpg

This should be part of a comprehensive class on sex and reproduction in about 6th or 7th grade. Shouldn't that make everyone happy? Learning about fetal developement should go right along with learning about prenatal care, birth control, hygiene, even nutrition, and exercise. Give the kids accurate information before they get to the point that they are making decisions, but when they are old enough to understand it and think about what it really means and be able to put that knowledge to practical use when the time comes.

robynlewisTX. 6 weeks after conception or 8 weeks after last menstral cycle (what drs use) the "baby" is about the size of a jelly bean. So at 4 weeks the "baby" is 1/100 of an inch or about the size of a period at the end of a sentence. So where did the "baby" go?

The reason for the law is that the child is wanted by the pregnant woman. This law is used in cases like car accidents, rapes, domestic violence. It does not include legal abortion.

FL if you cause the fetus to die in a pregnant woman you can be charged with manslaughter up to murder

So where did the "baby" go?

Down the toilet, where else?

Here it is again, arguing for the dehumanization of a life. It's so easy to see how we've gotten to the point of live abortions on twitter. Once you've dehumanized someone it becomes no different than stomping ants on a public sidewalk. What a sick, sick world we live in.

mule the point i was making was when an embryo is considered legally alive in FL. i never said this law applied to legal abortion. please no twisting comments.

tojo1968, I wasn't twisting your comments, just explaining what the law was for. I remember when it was enacted. I used to live in WPB. If I remember the case it had to do with a car accident where the woman was late in pregnancy. The other car ran a light and slammed her car. The baby died but the woman lived. This is all from memory so don't take it as word. The questions was could a person be charged with murder or manslaughter for killing an unborn child. It is not considered "legally alive" for the purpose of abortion but for the purpose of charging for murder. They are separate issues.

"The reason for the law is that the child is wanted by the pregnant woman." - So, just to be clear, we are legally defining life as "the child is wanted by the pregnant woman." Otherwise, the child is not alive if the pregnant woman doesn't "want" it. I'm not sure that I go along with that definition.

In my opinion, there should be a point when we actually have a legal definition of when an embryo "becomes" a baby. I would agree that four weeks is still very early in a pregnancy to have an abortion. Can we also agree that twenty-two weeks is very LATE in a pregnancy to have an abortion (with the exception of medical necessity to save the life of the mother and where the baby's life is unviable?)

There are so many birth control options, the morning after pill in case of potential birth control failure, and early term abortion options available that later term abortions should no longer be necessary - with the exceptions of the above items that I have pointed out.

This is such a comlicated issue, and I agree with a woman's right to her body. At some point, does the baby have a right to his or her body?

RV...EXACTLY!!! how can you say its not a baby yet when i can be charged with its death if i cause a misfortune to the mother?? if its alive enough for that then its alive enough to be considered a baby!! MULE...even at 4 weeks a person can be charged here.

It is in the way the law is written. It used to be that in an accident or in the case of domestic violence, the death of the "baby" in the womb could only be considered battery on the woman. There was no regard for the loss of the wanted baby. I am using wanted so as not to confuse it with the aborted fetus. I don't know at what point the law allows the charge to be made but it does NOT mean that life begins at that point.

It's called "fetal homicide."

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/Health/FetalHomicideLaws/tabid/14386/Default.aspx

These laws have focused on the harm done to a pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of her pregnancy, but not on the rights of the fetus.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 316.193 (2005) defines DUI manslaughter to include the death of an unborn quick child.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 782.09 defines murder as the willful killing of an unborn quick child by any injury to the mother. The law also defines manslaughter.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 782.071 defines vehicular homicide as the killing of a human being, or the killing of a viable fetus by any injury to the mother, caused by the operation of a motor vehicle by another in a reckless manner likely to cause the death of, or great bodily harm to, another.

SW,

Please understand that I wasn't "calling you out" or anything. Thank you for finding the law. I just do not like our current legal definition of what contitutes a "baby." I think that we can do better legally.

"I don't know at what point the law allows the charge to be made but it does NOT mean that life begins at that point." - I think that this is what needs to be clarified for EVERYONE!

robynlewisTX. and JohnRussell --

Robyn and John what is this image?

Image to view

Looks like something Pablo Picasso would have done. That is an embryo at 4 weeks.

Development looks of a fetus through the weeks

WOW that 4 week old embryo looks SO developed now doesn't it.

Another 4 week old embryo viewing.

WHOA look at that image damn that looks so much like a baby now doesn't it. I must really be blind to not see it. If you saw any of those sitting on a tray you wouldn't have one bloody clue what in the hell it was.

Week 4

Gestational age: 3 weeks old. 22–28 days from last menstruation.

Embryonic age: Week nr 2. 1 week old. 8–14 days from fertilization.

* Trophoblast cells surrounding the embryonic cells proliferate and invade deeper into the uterine lining. They will eventually form the placenta and embryonic membranes. The blastocyst is fully implanted day 7-12 of fert.[5]

* Formation of the yolk sac.

* The embryonic cells flatten into a disk, two cells thick.

* If separation into identical twins occurs, 2/3 of the time it will happen between days 5 and 9. If it happens after day 9, there is a significant risk of the twins being conjoined.

* Primitive streak develops. (day 13 of fert.[5])

* Primary stem villi appear. (day 13 of fert.[5])

WHOA look at that info about an embryo at 4 weeks of age. Really it has fingernails and a heartbeat??? Considering the fact it is not until about 7-8 weeks of age that you can make out sort of hands and feet which are most likely still webbed of an embryo. Really at 4 weeks they have fingernails???

By the way heartbeats don't start till about 5 weeks of age.

OH MAN I LOVE the absolute beyond anything complete ignorance when it comes to fetal development and all. WOW. NO wonder so many people squawk about abortions no matter what trimester as those against abortion are completely void of fetal development information.

JohnRussell--

NOPE that is your opinion of when human life begins. Guess what John there are currently

308,834,825 people as of 19:33 UTC (EST+5) Mar 09, 2010 IN the US alone.

Guess what of those 308,834,825 people everyone has their own opinion and definition.

Human life for me starts when the fetus is born and out in the world taking its first real breath of real air.

In the time span that it took me to even write that out the population has now jumped to
U.S. 308,834,833
19:35 UTC (EST+5) Mar 09, 2010

For me, human life begins around age 16.

I've got one at home that's 25.....still doesn't resemble a human.....

So where did the "baby" go?

Paraphrased: To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: ~ 2nd Corinthians 5:7

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. ~ 2nd Corinthians 5:8

tojo, just to let you know, I live in Florida as well. Since Miss Mule and others have clarified the laws here, there is no need for me to go into it. Thanks for the information though.

Ladies, thank you for straightening the misconception on Fetal homicide in Fla!

~Sara

Well stated JohnRussell!

The one thing that can't be argued is that from conception, the baby has it's own DNA.

But I'm sure KShark will try to find (or make up on her own) something to refute THAT too!

You do realize, John, how many fertilized eggs are unknowingly flushed with the menstrual fluid? All those little lives with their own little DNA that never attach to the endrometria. The egg and the sperm united in conceptual oneness. Woosh.

IMO, abortion must be legal because no person can be forced to give up his/her body for another to live. Simple as that. Outlaw abortion and you will be forcing women to be secondary to an implanted zygote.

sara, what misconception? did i say anything that was not a fact? more twisting of words! all i was trying to say is....how come prochoice says its not a baby yet but FLA law says it is if i cause its death OUTSIDE of a legal abortion?

tojo1968, Florida does not say it is a baby. They call it a "fetus" and the crime is "fetal hommicide" not baby hommicide. Florida does not call it a baby. They call it a fetus.

repost of 8-24:

It's called "fetal homicide."

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/Health/FetalHomicideLaws/tabid/14386/Default.aspx

These laws have focused on the harm done to a pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of her pregnancy, but not on the rights of the fetus.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 316.193 (2005) defines DUI manslaughter to include the death of an unborn quick child.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 782.09 defines murder as the willful killing of an unborn quick child by any injury to the mother. The law also defines manslaughter.

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 782.071 defines vehicular homicide as the killing of a human being, or the killing of a viable fetus by any injury to the mother, caused by the operation of a motor vehicle by another in a reckless manner likely to cause the death of, or great bodily harm to, another.

Merriam webster online dictionary- fetus: a developing human usually two months after conception. So to me and im sure a majority of people here would agree- fetus = baby!

782.071 (2) For purposes of this section, a fetus is viable when it becomes capable of meaningful life outside the womb through standard medical measures.

i work in the medical field...if its capable of this its called a baby!

a developing human as in a cake that is somewhere between the box out of the box, with ingredients added and stirred, and the finished product with icing and decorations and candles: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

I don't care what MW defines it as because MW is not Florida law which says specifically and by your own quote:

782.071 (2) For purposes of this section, a fetus is viable when it becomes capable of meaningful life outside the womb through standard medical measures.

"For the purpose of this section..." and from the beginning of the list I gave: "These laws have focused on the harm done to a pregnant woman and the subsequent loss of her pregnancy, but not on the rights of the fetus."

The laws have nothing to do with the rights of the fetus or the conclusion of when life begins. It simply states that if damage is done to the woman that causes the loss of pregnancy of a fetus that would be able to survive under normal conditions outside of the womb... It has NOTHING to do with abortion or the beginning of life or rights of the fetus at any state of development. It is only for definition of the law of fetal homicide.

the ONLY point i was trying to make from the beginning,but things have gotten so played out in a word game, is i think its hypocritical that you can be charged with killing a fetus, baby whatever is politically correct to call it this week ,OUTSIDE of a legal abortion....but prochoice and planned parenhood still try to say its anything but a human life. thats all!!!

tojo, By law, words mean exactly what the LAW explains that they mean. In "fetal homicide" it is not the death of the fetus as a single charge as it would be with the born child or adult. Before the "fetal homicide" laws were put in place a pregnant woman could be severly injured in a car wreck. She would live but the fetus, still in the womb, would die. Because the woman lived no homicide charge could be made against the other person. She lost the "baby" that could have been born and lived, with only normal medical care, at that point. It does not work for a 4 month fetus that is not formed enough to live. It's parts do not work.

This is not a word game. You can not look it up in a dictionary. The law is someone hurting the pregnant woman causing termination of the pregnancy, death of the viable fetus.

Abortion is the woman, with assistance, terminating her own pregnancy of a non-viable fetus, one that can not survive outsid of the womb. "Late-term" abortions, a term used by pro-life, are medically necessary terminations of pregnancy for the life of the mother or child.

omg i did look it up and gave you the definition buuut you didnt like that now your still talking around the one and only simple point i was trying to make! pph and pro choice have been telling poor innocent confused girls for years that they are not killing anything but a mass of tissue. its a human being plain and simple...again i work in the medical field and work closely with MANY ob/gyns in my area so im sorry i think i have a little bit better scientific view of this....if i may ask...what is your experience professionally or otherwise in the area of ob/gyn? im really hoping its more than an annual pap exam or "i have 2 kids"? btw thats not a snide remark...im used to dealing with alot of people who depend on Google for their info!

tojo1968, What exactly are you referring to? The Florida fetal homicide law? All the info is there. It is not from google. I gave the link. click on it and it will take you to the exact words. If you do not understand what the legal terms mean, look them up. The legal definitions are written in the law. Not the dictionary but the law. It is right there for you to read.

Your experience and mine have nothing to do with fact, only opinion and point of view. I don't fight opinion. When you say you work in the medical field that could mean any number of things from doctor to dietary. That has nothing to do with the law and the definition set forth in the law.

Do you have some other problem with me or my posts?